Recurring respiratory problems

[Poppyhal]

Hello,

I realise this is a common question, but I have a few specific questions I would like advice on if possible.

One of my rats, Biscuit, is nearly 10 months old. Approximately five months ago she got a respiratory infection (the normal crackling, pigeon noises etc) but she went down hill very quickly when she was just on baytril, so much so the emergency vet said there was nothing that could help and wanted to PTS (what a waste of time and money that was!). Anyway, after a few injections and one months worth of baytril and ronaxan, she got better. She also has a pinch of Bisolvon with her meds.

This reps problem reoccurred and she was on the same combo for another month and got better. But a week after stopping the meds, she started making crackling noises and her chest sounds phlegmy. I have started her on just ronaxan this time, and she has been on this for a week now.

So:

a) should I continue with ronaxan if this works, but how long should a rat be on such abs?
b) should I combine it with the baytril?
c) should I try a different combination?
d) apart from spetrin, I have not found a vet that will prescribe any other abs for my rats because they are not listed 'in their book'. How do I convince them to give me other meds?

Thanks for your help.

[Ratgirl@RatRitz]

What doses of antibiotics has Biscuit had previous? ... the course length you have used is appropriate, however since she has had reoccurring problems since, she may have been under-dosed previously, hence the question.

a) should I continue with ronaxan if this works, but how long should a rat be on such abs?

A 4 week course is usually long enough to take care of any problems and to prevent them from reoccurring, however this can be extended up to 8 weeks for more serious cases. Anything longer than 8 weeks would be considered long term, and if this did not prevent reoccurrence then it is possible to keep rats on antibiotics permanently, with the correct support alongside.

b) should I combine it with the baytril?

I wouldn't use Baytril again this time.

c) should I try a different combination?

Yes, I would try Doxy and Zithromax. This can be more effective for some rats, and is particularly good for stubborn respiratory infections.

Also consider that given the history of respiratory problems there is a high chance that Biscuit now has some heart damage, and she may have mild heart failure as a result. This can cause respiratory infections to reoccur due to a build of of fluid in the lungs which provides a reservoir for bacteria. It may be worth trying her on a diuretic and an ACE inhibitor to see if she responds. If she does respond, then these would become permanent medications, but once the current infection is resolved, with the heart meds in use, it should not reoccur again.

d) apart from spetrin, I have not found a vet that will prescribe any other abs for my rats because they are not listed 'in their book'. How do I convince them to give me other meds?

It can be difficult to persuade Vets to use different drugs for rats. The only drug licensed for use in rats is Baytril, but obviously Baytril isn't appropriate for all things which rats can suffer from.

You may find that this page helps, this is where I started when I need to persuade my own Vet to use other drugs when I first started keeping rats, I would suggest printing it out and giving it to your Vet - http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

Also ask your Vet if they would feel happier to use other drugs after speaking to another Vet who has used said drugs for rats before. If this is acceptable to your Vet, and they would like to speak to another Vet with lots of experience of using different drugs for rats, drop me a PM, and I will give you my own Vets' contact details. My own Vet is happy to confirm anything I have said, and has used many different drugs successfully for my own rats.

[Poppyhal]

Thanks for all your help.

She has been on 0.15 of baytril with 1/8 tablet of ronaxan twice a day the first time round, then the same again but with 0.2 of baytril.

Should I try the other combo of meds first before the heart treatment? If so, for how long?

Also, her sister Pickle has been on the same medication because she has had similar problems, but the symptoms always start a few weeks after Biscuit, and they are not as bad. If her symptoms do not reappear, I assume I don't need to worry about any heart problems for now?

[Ratgirl@RatRitz]

Thanks for all your help.

No problem ... just hope we have some success!

She has been on 0.15 of baytril with 1/8 tablet of ronaxan twice a day the first time round, then the same again but with 0.2 of baytril.

Hmmm ... unless she is very small indeed, I do think she may have been under-dosed there ... how big is she, would you consider her small, medium or large?

I do not work to exact weights with dosing, most drugs have a reasonable safety margin, and I have found that working to rough guidelines, rounding up if appropriate rather than rounding down, is quite effective ... this leeway also allows for such things as, for example, losing a bit of the drugs on a syringe, or on you, or if a little is missed and not eaten.

For Baytril, the lowest dose I use is 0.2mls twice a day and this would be for a small rat (~300g), medium-sized/'average' sized rats (~500g) receive 0.35mls, and larger rats 0.5mls (~700g). Where cases are very sudden, or more serious, I will also use higher doses than that. (I also dose Baytril once a day at a slightly higher volume, and this is also effective.)

For Doxy (20mg tablet), it goes roughly 1/8th~300g, 1/6th~500g, 1/4er~700g, twice a day.

Should I try the other combo of meds first before the heart treatment? If so, for how long?

This I would say depends on her history and how bad she is right now, if her problem has ever caused her to be very floppy, exhausted, lethargic, seriously off her food, dehydrated, or have very laboured breathing, her risk of heart failure is high from what I have witnessed here, and I would put her on everything right away, and sort it out later when she is feeling better. This can be done by just starting her on everything now, keeping her on everything for 4 weeks, after this, stop the antibiotics, monitor her for 2 weeks while keeping her on the heart meds, then, reduce the heart meds to half of what she is receiving, if she worsens, increase them again, if not, stop them completely, if she worsens this time, start them up again at the lower dose, if she remains stable without any meds for 2 weeks, she was just suffering from a respiratory infection and does not need permanent heart meds right now. If she deteriorates at all without the heart meds, she has additional heart failure on top of a respiratory infection ... make sense?

The heart meds are pretty safe to use diagnostically in this way, the chances of them doing any damage are slim, and, if she is quite bad, or has been quite bad during this episode, they will help prevent this round of infection from causing any further damage to her heart, so may well be beneficial regardless of whether she has full blow heart failure to any degree right now, or not.

Also, her sister Pickle has been on the same medication because she has had similar problems, but the symptoms always start a few weeks after Biscuit, and they are not as bad. If her symptoms do not reappear, I assume I don't need to worry about any heart problems for now?

You assume correctly, though she is still at risk because she has had repeat episodes, she is not at as great a risk due to the lower severity of her symptoms.

[Poppyhal]

Thanks again. They are both very petite girls, about 300g I would think. I will call the vet tomorrow, but it will be luck what vet I will see.